Sensor prices

disquek
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:13 pm

Sensor prices

Postby disquek » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:50 pm

While I'm sure that the sensors you're selling are worth thier cost, I question the need for such high end sensors in a typical amature motorsports application.

$250 for an oil pressure sensor and cable? An autometer sensor is $30, a resistor is $1, 2m of wire is $5. If you throw in 100% profit, you're still only at $72.

$76 for a water temp sensor and cable? The Autometer temp sender is $14. $6 for wire and resistor ...

$300 for a string pot and resistor? High quaity string pots can be bought for $170 from major online industrial supply vendors. Again, throw in $6 for a wire and resistor ...

I appriciate that some high end teams may want this kind of sensor, but I'd bet that 95% of your current customers do not.

Autometer provides the resistance values and inputs for their sensors. As an alternative to adding these products to your catalog, could you work out the correct resistor and formula for us?

I think that this kind of support for the "grass roots" customer would go a long way.

Thanks for listening,
-Kyle

Support

Postby Support » Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:02 am

The oil pressure sensor has a stainless diaphragm and high quality silicon strain gauge sensing element, and is an excellent sensor... there are other cheaper sensors available but we would not be happy selling them.

Again the string pot we sell is designed for motorsport/aerospace and will stand up to day to day racing-type use

disquek
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:13 pm

Postby disquek » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:07 pm

Like I said, I'm sure that the sensors you sell are both very high quality and priced appropriatly for a high end sensor. I don't question why you sell them. I'm sure that they're F1 quality.

I simply question the need for a super high end sensor in an amature motorsports application. I'm not concerned that my oil pressure data is within .5%. A smart amature racer will put that money other places.

I'm suggesting that you add an affordable line of sensors. There are lots of OEM sensors that are very affordable and reliable.

-Kyle

Stan
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:40 am

Postby Stan » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:06 pm

Kyle, just log whatever you'd like! The DL1 and software can deal with it. This has nothing to do with R-T's sensors at all. For cheaper sensors it just makes no sense for them to sell. You can buy wire locally too!

disquek
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:13 pm

Postby disquek » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:13 pm

Stan,

Do you think that most racers want to spend their time working out resistor values for voltage dividers or deriving polynomials for conversion from volts to PSI? Please.

Since you seem onboard with the idea of affordable sensors, have you worked out the math above? I have. I had to enlist an EE and an Ivy League math major. It's not trivial.

My thoughts are, given RTs permission, I'll post the results of my development. My hope was that RT would see the value in this and work out the details of how to use other sensors.

BTW: Stack, AIM, Pi, and Motec all sell their sensors for less.

-Kyle

Support

Postby Support » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:56 am

Hi Kyle,

You later point about sensor pricies from other DAQ manufactuers is simply not true, there maybe the odd exception I'm not aware of but generally on a like-for-like basis we are competitive... if you would like to post more information about other sensors you are more then welcome to, indeed if customers ask me to assist in integrating there own sensors with our hardware I try and help wherever possible. The only problem come when you want to use a sensor for which there is no proper documentation, as is typical for OEM sensors already on the engine.

Support

disquek
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:13 pm

Postby disquek » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:20 pm

I tell you what ... I'll do some research and you folks can do some too (after you fix and test the Dash1).

Here's a vendor in the USA that sells Stack. Every sensor I questioned is cheaper. Some are less than half the cost.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group. ... TACKSENSOR

-Kyle

Stan
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:40 am

Postby Stan » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:46 pm

Kyle, you posted an URL for a dealer that sells STACK, and not STACK. Could they be selling @ less than full list price?

Support
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:09 pm

Postby Support » Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:33 pm

From looking at the pictures of the sensors, they are not all of the same quality, you are not comparing like with like. If you wish to use those sensors with your DL1 then go ahead, there will be no problem at all so long as you can get the calibration information.
Our system has been designed to be very open in terms of which sensor you use. We merely offer sensors as a convenience to our customers after many of them requested sensors from us. If you want to use a cheaper sensor, go ahead.

Martin
______________________________
Posted by Race Technology Support

disquek
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:13 pm

Postby disquek » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm

Clearly you're not reading my posts.

One more time ... I don't doubt that the sensors you're selling are very high quality. I do, however, doubt the logic of using such highend sensors in an amature motorsports setting (and clearly so do your competitors with much more high priced DAQ systems).

It's like putting a billet crank into a street driven honda civic with the stock rev limiter. Yeah, it's a better crank, but it doesn't help the goal of the car.

In any case, as suggested, I will use my own sensors. Design my own voltage divider, and compute my own polynomial. How many amature racers want to spend their time doing this? While I'm doing this, my competitors are tuning their engines and chassis.

Consider this: that oil pressure sensor alone is 25% of the cost of the WHOLE DAQ SYSTEM!

-Kyle

Stan
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:40 am

Postby Stan » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:04 am

disquek wrote:Clearly you're not reading my posts. Consider this: that oil pressure sensor alone is 25% of the cost of the WHOLE DAQ SYSTEM!
-Kyle


Sure your posts are read, by amateurs and pros. If you don't need super awesome pressure readings use a different sensor. Look...how can you drive your car now - it has a crummy gas gage? Log a cheap sensor and learn to read thru the data is one option. No need to overcomplicate things.

Wizard
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:28 pm

Postby Wizard » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:53 pm

disquek wrote:I had to enlist an EE and an Ivy League math major.


Kyle,
I hope you didn't have to pay these two people to do all this work.... you would have been better off just buying the sensor.

FYI, most OEM type sensors have a lot of calibration and set-up information on the web. One source I have found very valuable is the Mega-Squirt sites. For those of you who are not familiar with Mega-Squirt it's a DIY (Do-It-Yourself) fuel injection system. Since the system uses OEM sensors, many of its users have posted calibrations/set-ups for all the major OEM sensors (Ford, GM, .....). I would suggest anyone who wants to save money on sensors to check out these sites and read up.

Oh, the Stack sensors are not the best either. Many are just OEM sensors which you can buy for a few $$$ @ you local part store (check out Mega-Squirt). Their oil pressure sensor is crappy.

Bang for Buck, the DL1 is the best DAQ out there.

I hope this helps.

Eric

disquek
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:13 pm

Postby disquek » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:44 am

Thanks for the concern. I didn't pay them. They're friends. I asked them to teach me how to do the work myself. I'm a "teach to fish" guy, not a "give a fish" guy.

Edited: I'm not feeling the love here. If you want help with setting up inexpensive sensors, ask "stan".

-Kyle
Last edited by disquek on Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stan
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:40 am

Postby Stan » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:53 pm

There are lots of online calculators or Excel addins that can provide polynomial curve fit equations given some data examples such as x,y or what not. Easy stuff.

disquek
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:13 pm

Postby disquek » Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:44 pm

Really Stan!?

And to think I spent all that time working out factors to nine digits past the decimal by hand ... :roll:

-Kyle


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